Tune in to Time for A Reset
Ollie – 00:00:01:
Don’t forget it’s about consumers and it’s about humans. And so the way what you make and what you show for them becomes even more important. So I think if you keep those tenets together, really consumer-centric and natural curiosity, I think that’s a really powerful mix.
Paul – 00:00:19:
Welcome to the Time For A Reset Marketing Podcast: Insights from Global Brand Marketers, brought to you by CvE Marketing Consultancy. I’m your host, Paul Frampton-Calero, and in each episode, I dive deep into the minds of senior marketing leaders from around the world. Join me as we explore what they want to hit reset on an ever-changing landscape and uncover strategies that drive successful brand transformation. Welcome back to another episode of Time For A Reset. I’m your host, Paul Frampton, and I am thrilled today to be joined by the inimitable Ollie Shayer, who’s the UK Omnichannel Media Director for Boots. Ollie and I often chew the fat about the industry, know each other fairly well, and Ollie’s always got a really provocative perspective. So really thrilled to have you here, Ollie, welcome.
Ollie – 00:01:05:
Thank you so much, Paul. Really glad to be here, and really, really good to see you again, and looking forward to catching up.
Paul – 00:01:11:
Likewise. So we’re going to jump into the reset, but I wanted to ask you actually something that just occurred to me. Like, your title, Omnichannel Media Director, is a rather unusual one in the industry. I mean, I think it’s a great one, but could you maybe just explain, unpack kind of what that means for the listeners?
Ollie – 00:01:26:
Yeah, of course. Yeah, really happy to. So I think, you know, when I joined Boots sort of three years ago, I think my role at Boots kind of splits between two parts. One part is I look after all of Boots’ own media, paid media activity. So everything we buy is media from through the line. So from TV through to sort of PBC. And then on the other half of my role, I run Boots Media Group, which is our retail media group. And I think the kind of the Omni side was always about the idea that it was kind of holistic media. It was everything was together. I think I’ve talked quite a lot about the hope in the future that you won’t have like retail media, media is media. But that was the kind of idea is it kind of went across everything and it was kind of all media channels. So it kind of stuck. I don’t know originally if it was going to like stick, but it stuck. So, so yeah, that was it really. There’s I think two sides of it. I mean, it’s been really helpful to have both parts together. It’s just meant that we can leverage both bits. One part from what we may be doing based media group over into core media, and then the same back the other way.
Paul – 00:02:23:
Great. No, thank you for that. And I think it makes a lot of sense because you often see quite a lot of siloing between kind of the retail media side and the core part of marketing. So the fact that I think it’s great that you actually have a perspective and a purview across both parts of it. I think it probably others could benefit from doing the same, to be honest.
Ollie – 00:02:42:
No, no. So I was going to say it has been a huge benefit and I think it just helps with the integration. It’s really helpful.
Paul – 00:02:47:
And integration is pretty tough these days with all the fragmentation, let’s be honest. Okay, so let’s start where we always start. We’d love to hear what you would reset if you had a big red button on your home desk.
Ollie – 00:03:00:
Yeah, no, it’s really interesting. And I think for me, it’s a really interesting time that we’re living in in marketing. We talk about it a lot. I think we’ve never had more understanding of the kind of data and I suppose the science side of what we do. And, you know, we’ve never probably talked more about kind of data-driven marketing and the approach that we take in that space. And now increasingly with kind of AI and GenAI, we start talking more about how that’s going to kind of bridge from sort of data into a kind of creative space. And I think the thing that I’ve always thought is that, you know, great marketing is always this fantastic balance between the art and the science. So it always has been as we’ve kind of evolved what’s possible with science, the kind of data side, you’ve always wanted to match it with great art. And I think my big thought as we enter this world, which is becoming increasingly data-driven, is kind of like, I really want to make sure we don’t lose sight of that, which always sounds weird coming from a media director and probably a guy who’s really well-known for data.
Paul – 00:03:51:
Right.
Ollie – 00:03:51:
But I always feel really strongly that that’s, you know, that’s going to be, I think, a real difference maker in is the people, in the future, that can really meld art and science together really well will be the most successful ones because I think it uses the great tooling that’s now available in the kind of data side and the science side with great creativity and great, you know, it’s much more human.
Paul – 00:04:12:
Yes.
Ollie – 00:04:13:
And at the end of the day, you know, particularly for marketing, marketing is about, you know, humans talking to each other. And I think that part isn’t probably doesn’t need to get lost. So for me, it’s the if I had a big red button, I just kind of feel like it’s sort of like Britain’s Got Talent. Push it down.
Paul – 00:04:28:
Yeah.
Ollie – 00:04:29:
It would be on that element of just making sure that we reset our kind of perspective on how the world of kind of art and science works together.
Paul – 00:04:36:
Well said, well said. And I mean, it kind of has always been a debate and a discussion, hasn’t it? The whole kind of the art and science piece. But as you beautifully articulated, I think as the industry has become more scientific and digital has taken over and there’s lots of data involved and collected. And now we’ve got the kind of emergence of generative AI. It feels like ever more so there is a kind of not necessarily a cloud of data and technology sitting over the kind of creative side, but there’s a skew in the scales. It feels like everything is talked about is more on that side of them. How do you think, I guess, MarTech, first party data and GAI have actually changed that dynamic? Have they changed it more? Is it all just the same debate, but just with different, kind of tooling like you talked about?
Ollie – 00:05:27:
Yeah, it’s a great, I mean, for me, I always think, you know, what we start with is kind of the consumer. Like, I think that’s the part that’s always so important. Like, you know, what is it you’re, you know, generally with marketing, we’re trying to get the consumer to behave, to either change behavior or behave in a way that they may be doing today, but probably more so than they want to. So I think what the MarTech has allowed us to do is to understand consumer behavior even better. So, you know, our first party data allows me to really understand, okay, what’s your, what are you purchasing? What’s your behavior? You know, what things are important to you? What’s your kind of lifestyle? And Boots has a lot of that data. So it’s really rich. I think MarTech is kind of, and AdTech has really accelerated in that connectivity between it. I think the next part with the GenAI part is that, you know, a lot of it was that it was so complex, the level of data, that actually it was tough to then turn that into something that could be really easily connected to creators. So it was tough to go, well, you’ve got lots of advancement in how I can talk to consumers and things I know about them, but how do I match that with, from a creator side? And I think the GenAI part helps with that because you can now make far more iterations of assets that can then be used against those strategies. I think that’s where it’s got real potential. And then obviously it’s the ability to use GenAI to access huge amounts of data much more quickly and understand those insights from it. So I think the fundamentals probably don’t change, which is, you know, you want to understand who your customer is. You want to build really great insight about that customer. You want to make an asset that talks to them. And then you have the ability to activate that where they are. So ultimately, you’ve got even better tools to do that than you’ve ever had before. And I think, you know, you’ve got to, it’s that balance then between how do you then make sure that what you tell them is the thing that they really want to hear. So I think it has been a real change. It’s really, I mean, even in the three years I’ve been doing this role, I think the tools I can use now versus where I was previously is incredible. And when you combine that with knowing sales data as well, it starts to get really powerful.
Paul – 00:07:22:
Yeah, no, I think that’s a really interesting way to look at it. AdTech has largely been about better targeting and kind of are real today. Are they real today or are they still kind of more about tomorrow?
Ollie – 00:07:34:
I think there’s, I mean, I think the application like GenAI are definitely available today. So, I mean, I, you know, if I look at the tools that are available to use, I mean, even in just out of the box, say something like, I don’t know, ChatGPT, you look at what’s available today and you go, well, you know, today we could, you and I here could log on, use right there, the sort of prompt and get it to create assets for me now using a combination of tooling. So either, you know, DALL-E or, you know, we can use Meta’s Lama or even Google’s, you know, Gemini. There are tools already available that let you combine that together right now. So I think there is applications there today, I think, in creativity. And I think that, you know, like you were saying, I think that will be a massive feature about how those are kind of crossing over. I think Google did. Their announcements for performance, their performance announcements, I think, a couple of weeks ago, and they showcased a lot of what that would look like. So definitely there’s applications today. I also think there’s just applications of uses. I mean, I look at it today. I mean, I look at what’s possible now with what you can use today, I think, out of the box to sort of connect data to it in a safe way. You know, things like Microsoft Copilot. I mean, you look at the integration of that into Excel, into other tooling, Gemini, into Slack. All of it’s there now for you to use. I think it’s whether you want to. And I suppose also for businesses, how safe it feels putting what types of data in there.
Paul – 00:08:55:
Absolutely.
Ollie – 00:08:56:
But I think people are using it a lot today already.
Paul – 00:08:59:
I think you’re absolutely right. I mean, I actually lead our kind of AI council across our group and a lot of the conversation we’re having is people are going to bring their own AI in anyway. I think Microsoft did a study recently that said even if enterprises aren’t encouraging it and building a sandbox for people, they’re doing it themselves. So either kind of encourage it, encourage play and experimentation and upskilling, or just accept that it’s going to happen without you being able to point it in the right places. So I think you’re right, actually, the thing that seems to be holding back people is more the various aspects of anxiety or concern either from the enterprise and from certain people in the back office saying, well, don’t let people upload sensitive data or don’t let them to do this versus kind of probably slightly more kind of client, customer-facing people going, well, this could actually allow us to improve the value of what we provide, either make it more efficient or faster or do it better. And there seems to just be this slight, friction between different folks within enterprises who are like, well, be careful and no, go play. And I don’t think many people have really worked out the right place yet and how to create the right engagement with their people.
Ollie – 00:10:09:
Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think it is a real challenge. I think also, you know, people are asking questions like, well, what is the data being used to train? So if I put data in there, does it training a model that my competitors would then be able to utilize? And I think those sort of questions, which probably need understanding and how safe is it for me to put that data in there and then utilize it? And actually, what do I own? Like, what’s my model? Like, how do I have that as something that’s for me? Where’s my competitive advantage in that space? You know, even I think with, you know, I’m sure brands with partners in the kind of agency digital space are like wondering, well, what happens if I connect that into it? And what, you know, what do I own anymore? And what’s in a model and what could be used elsewhere? So I think there are some really interesting questions being asked about that. I think the biggest thing for me, and I mean, I’m, you know, you know me quite well. I’m a very curious person. Like, I think you can use these tools now, just like in your, not without the need to include sensitive data, but just to start to learn how they work and to start to play with them and to start to get an idea of what it is without a necessity to then utilize it for direct business case usage, to get a feeling of what is it like to actually use this? Because it will become a bit more, you know, maybe it doesn’t feel natural at first. And why would I want to ask it a question like that or do that? I think the other thing which I’ve really found is when people do AI in general, it’s so encompassing and you could put it to work on anything. Like people are like, well, it could work in every aspect of the business. So like really thinking about, well, what’s the use case I might have for it? That’s quite normal. Like, for example, you know, if I run a report on a Monday morning and it’s, you know, to look at the previous week’s performance, wouldn’t it be great if I could query that report by asking the AI to tell me, well, what’s the top things that we’re seeing? Rather than me looking at it and going through that in detail. So I think those are the sorts of things that feel like it’s not too far away versus, you know, it’s going to completely revolutionize everything that we’re going to do. So yeah, I think the play part is really important. And if you’re curious, I think you can start to utilize it and see where it goes.
Paul – 00:12:14:
Absolutely. That’s where I net out as well. And I think your point about very clear use cases is a really important one because let’s face it, it can be applied to every department and almost every task in a business. So for someone to say, get the organization using AI or even to ask the question, is the organization, is almost a pointless kind of question I saw. I see various studies going 65% of orgs are using AI. I was like, okay, what does that actually mean? I mean, someone putting one prompt into ChatGPT-4 into kind of perplexity is not really using it. That’s just kind of like initiating kind of access to it. Whereas, I think the next stage and you touched on it is going to be all about, okay, well, how are people building it into their workflow and using it to do things better and experimenting so that they can show your reporting use case is a great one. Actually, it saved a lot of time and those people are no longer pulling a report or pulling an insight out of the report because that does take a lot of time in agencies. I mean, we’ve just done a big consulting project. I won’t name who it was for, but a very high percentage and we’re talking over 50% of a lots of people was being spent purely on pulling reports and putting commentary into the reports. And that’s really not a good use of time. Let’s be honest. Is it? And what do you, like, from a, I guess, an AI perspective, and you’ve obviously, particularly on the retail media, so I’ve been pretty close to, how do you use the advantage card data to create useful kind of new ways for your kind of brand partners to target people with particular interests? As we move more into a data, customer data world, and we move more into AI, it starts to throw out issues around ethics, around data and responsibility. And I know Boots has always, like you and Pete, have always been pretty kind of vocal about getting that right. But how much does that concern you?
Ollie – 00:14:10:
I think it’s, I mean, I, you know, I feel very strongly about this topic. I think as anyone who has responsibility for data, and particularly customer data, have a massive responsibility. You know, that’s, you know, what you do with that, how you utilize it, the ways in which you use it. You have a responsibility because customers have been, have entrusted that information to you. And I think we’ve seen numerous, like, three other world of when customers feel that that trust has been broken, that they will take action, whether that’s to no longer give you data or alternatively not to shop with you or to work, you know, to be one of your customers anymore. And I think, you know, when we talk about data, it seems very homogenous. Like it’s like, you know, it’s this big piece of mountain of item over here. It’s data. But actually the reality is it’s humans that are giving information that does it. And I think always taking it with that mindset that it’s something that someone has given you to get a better experience, whether that’s personalization or whether that’s better kind of consumer experience through a better site experience they might get if they visit you with logged in or best offers or products, whatever it might be. If you don’t use that data responsibly, then you’re not giving them the value exchanges, which is why they signed up for it in the first place, and I think.
Paul – 00:15:27:
Right, absolutely.
Ollie – 00:15:29:
We all have that sentiment of like, when we’ve signed up to something and gone, wow, now I’m receiving 18 emails every single day from something that’s completely unrelated to something I might have bought once. So I think I really feel strongly that that is a really important part of the evolution of how we use data going forward. But also as a burgeoning industry in retail media, it’s probably the thing we need to be most conscious of in the way in which we utilize our data and how customers perceive that going forward. Because if we, this is actually an issue that’s for the whole industry. It’s not just individual data owners, actually, all of us need to be accountable and taking the right type of approach for what we would use that information for.
Paul – 00:16:10:
Right. And like on a very surface level, when people don’t really understand something like retail media, people are like, I know when I talk to some of my friends that aren’t in marketing about this emergence of retailers as publishers, they’re like, well, you’re just using my data to target me. It’s like, okay, well, if there’s value and you look at like the smart shopping or the advantage pricing that you get, whether it’s in Sainsbury’s or Boots as a result of giving that data, there is a tangible value exchange. So could you maybe talk about some of the, some of the ways that kind of approach manifesting what you do in retail media? You’ve obviously got the desire to help some of the beauty players, particularly kind of be more sophisticated about how they personalize their communication. But as you just rightly said, you’ve got kind of customers that have come to Boots for a hundred plus years that you’re trying to also deliver great experience to. So how do you think about balancing those kind of different stakeholders when you’re building retail media campaigns?
Ollie – 00:17:05:
Yeah, and I think I always, I mean, for me, it always starts with the customer. That’s the most critical element for us. And I think everyone we work with would probably say the same, which is the experience of the customer is critical because actually that good consumer experience we all know, we love, and we will continue to shop with. Bad consumer experience, we won’t love, we won’t shop with, and we’ll tell everybody about it. And I think that’s the classic stat that everyone rolls out, which is like, you know, if you have a good experience, you don’t tell anybody. If you have a bad experience, you tell like 20 people. So I think that piece of ensuring that you get that balance right is really important. And I know that it’s really important to us. It’s also really important to the brand partners that we work with. And I think we’re all, it’s all based around the same thing, which is, you know, we know customers want more personalized experiences in whichever way in which they interact with a retailer. And I think what we see the opportunity as is to do that and tailor that for it in a relevant way with brand partners. And I think that is a really, that synergy together is the really critical part. If you, because you could rebalance it in either way, you could go really far one way and, you know, say, well, I can utilize this data in a certain way. And therefore I am going to do that. And I’m going to target everyone with regards to it. And you could go the other way and say, we’re not doing it at all. And I think what we’re constantly doing is saying, how do we do that in a balanced way so that the value exchange to our customers is always there? Because that’s the most important part. And that’s really the heart of Boots, which is about, you know, it’s all about customers. It always has been. And I think it always will be. And so that’s really the kind of ethos, but it’s always when you’re kind of walking. And I think as the industry’s evolved and what you’re able to do has evolved, that’s you’re continually going back to it and going, well, does it still give the value that we, where we started from?
Paul – 00:18:53:
Right. And I think you articulated beautifully there that at the end of the day, you’re there to serve the community, the customers walking in to Boots for either stuff from the pharmacy or for beauty, for that moment of excitement and enjoyment and joy when they find something. And you want to enhance that experience, not kind of create friction in that experience. But actually, the data, if used well by a L’Oreal or kind of anyone, actually, if they understand more about the customer, the opportunity to really personalize it and make it a more joyful experience is there if people do the right thing. It’s just that quite often people kind of tend to use the data in a quite lazy way. But I think it almost goes back to where you started that what a wonderful kind of opportunity for marketing to have the data, ways to actually improve and automate things that are just heavy lifts and to know where to put the right message and how to develop the message for the right person. I mean, that’s kind of what we’ve always wanted as a Nirvana. Yet, as you say, you’ve got to be very careful and conscious about the responsibility and how you get that right. And I think you’ve talked really well about it. I think often in the retail media space, there’s a lot of focus just on, well, it’s closing the margin gap that we’ve got in our core retail business. So therefore, just push as much of it as you can. And if you stick with putting the customer first, as you said, most of the time, you’re going to do fairly well. But there’s also been this, particularly in North America, there’s probably quite a big narrative around underdelivery, where there’s been these big promises about going to generate 100, 200, 500 million of incremental revenue, and then it hasn’t been delivered. How much do you believe the kind of retail media, kind of hype and do you think there is a similar overhyping in the UK? Or do you feel like, actually, there’s a slightly more sensible approach to it here? Because it feels like the North American narrative is, okay, yes, it’s huge. And yes, it’s become the new trend. But also, has it been slightly overpromised? Is the reality of what it delivers quite as incremental as people say it is? What’s your view on that? I know that’s a bit provocative, but…
Ollie – 00:21:04:
No, no, it’s a really great question. But I think my viewpoint has always been, I mean, you know, I talk about like, you know, I’m a big believer that I’ve been in media for a long time. You know, my youthful looks betray it.
Paul – 00:21:15:
Oh, you’re still in the campaign under 40, under 40, unlike me. Oh, yeah.
Ollie – 00:21:22:
So, but, you know, my kind of thought on it is I always talk about, you know, I think the last three years there’s been a lot of hype and interest in retail media as a concept and the new thing in the market. And I remember, you know, we have talked about it, you know, the rise of programmatic, the rise of mobile, the rise of other channels where, you know, it’s always been that it’s the next big thing. It’s going to be enormous. And I think we probably learned a lot in those experiences that actually when it was not done right, it wasn’t the next big thing because we got really excited about it. Everyone piled into it. It had loads of potential. And for one reason or another, it didn’t kind of turn into, didn’t mature into the industry, that it should have done. And I think, you know, we talked a lot about measurement and really knowing that, you know, that what you’re investing delivers the return it should. And so I think for me, the key thing has always been, you know, how do you make it something that’s a sustainable part of what people want to do? And I think, and part of something that really adds value back, not to the customers, but to the brand partners that you work with. And how do you really build that in like for a long-term scenario? Because I think if you look short-term, that probably leads us back to what, you know, we’ve been doing for a long time. Where you were starting, which is kind of, yes, it’s a great opportunity, but it’s not a long-term, that’s not a long-term model for it. So I’m, I’m always thinking about, well, where, how do we, how do we do that? So how do we make sure that we are protecting customers, ensuring that we’re delivering what they want for them and then growing, you know, retail media as an area can grow. I think the biggest thing for me on it is, and what’s been great in the UK is, you know, we did some partnership with ISBA on the framework, retail media framework to put together some sort of principles around that. And, you know, it was great for me as an old media guy, you know, like to have different partners come together around the table. Like couldn’t have imagined probably that happening maybe 10 years ago when programmatic kind of kicked off. But I think, you know, it’s credit to all the guys at ISBA to, to do that and bring US together to really build a really solid framework around that. And I think that type of approach will make a big difference. And I know they’ve got more coming in the US and that space as well. So I think having structure frameworks and approach on it, I think will make a difference. But I think, you know, we’re at that point where everyone wants to get into it, but it’s not easy. And I think you have to be, you know, every retailer is different. Every retailer has.
Paul – 00:23:41:
Yeah, that’s very true. And it’s context, right? The technology stack you need and the shifts you need to make in the IT and the core business, all of those things are not straightforward.
Ollie – 00:23:50:
No. And I think that’s always the thing is people see opportunity, they want to go towards it, but the reality of it is quite different. And when you get into it, you know, if you, if you can’t, like any service, if you can’t offer a good service to the people that you’re trying to offer it to, and it doesn’t deliver against their expectations, it undermines their confidence in that. And therefore it undermines the confidence in the industry. And that for me is where we just have to be so careful that we don’t get sucked into the hype and therefore go headlong into it without it delivering back on what it, on what it should do. So I think that’s the biggest risk. That’s the biggest risk that we have is that we get sucked into the hype and we don’t really deliver back. And it comes with that, which I think would be a real peril version.
Paul – 00:24:34:
Right. And not sustainable. Yeah.
Ollie – 00:24:36:
Yeah.
Paul – 00:24:38:
I’ve talked to many kind of senior marketers on the podcast about this relationship between technology or IT and marketing. And it strikes me that my general view is that the vast majority of marketers lend very slowly into technology, into marketing technology. And we’re a bit fearful of it. And still, I mean, Raja, who runs Mastercard globally at the WFA in Toronto a few weeks ago, called out and said, 20 years on, I’m not sure most of you in the audience still understand what programmatic actually is or the benefits and the downsides. Whereas I’ve always got the sense that Boots with yourself and also Pete’s leadership get a very good balance between the technology and what’s possible and the data, like, you guys have embraced clean rooms very early on, both on the retail media side, but also to kind of buy audiences with your data through broadcast. What’s encouraged that? Is that just a curiosity that you talked about earlier? Is it a cultural thing? Because Boots in itself. Probably, I imagine, wasn’t originally a very tech kind of first company because it comes from a very kind of traditional kind of background. So you might expect more tech product businesses to really lean into technology. But there are other consumer facing marketing businesses that may be like CPG. Let’s take CPG. Most are not technically literate. Let’s be honest. So what advice would you give to other marketeers about how to think about marketing and technology? Because they’re inseparable today, aren’t they?
Ollie – 00:26:07:
Yeah. I mean, you know me very well. Like I said, I’m a really curious person. Like I want to understand it. I’m also quite tech. I’m like quite geeky. Like I love technology. I like to understand how things work. I like to see how technology is shaping the world that we’re in. I think also the other thing is, yeah, I guess that’s a bit of a touch on it. It’s like if you’re consumer centric, you can see what the consumer is doing and the consumer is moving more to a world where technology is forming more part of what they’re doing all the time. And so from our side, like this has always been a very, you know, it’s been a company that’s always been incredibly innovative in everything that it’s done. You know, Advantage Card, you know, you know, the first company to develop specific drugs within the market. So lots of amazing things have been, it’s always been really famous for huge innovation in products like Number 7. You know, it’s always been at the heart of who we are as a company. And I think the thing for me is that if you’ve got curiosity and you kind of see the way the market’s moving, you’ve got, you know, you must kind of embrace it. I think if you don’t embrace it, it’s becoming competitive advantage and not having it is going to become competitive disadvantage. You will not, you know, if your competitor knows more about your customer than you do, then, you know, it’s a classic thing where it will put you at competitive disadvantage. So I think for marketers, you know, I would say don’t fear it. Find people you trust, you, you know, that you want to talk to about it, you know, because I think sometimes it’s fearful because people don’t understand it. So they’re like, well, who do I go and talk to about it? Who can I trust that? And give me an honest viewpoint. And there’s some great people in the industry, who you can go and talk to about that. And, you know, I think that’s always, if you do that and you work out what’s right for you and for your customer, you know, then you will find the right kind of solution for it. And, and equally also, I think the IT departments are really interested in this space. You know, they also want to be on the front foot in what’s working from a technology and all my experiences across my career, you know, that’s important for them. So yeah, that would be probably my, that would be really my advice.
Paul – 00:28:07:
That’s great advice. I think you’re right. And it often is just a different language. I’ve often thought that a lot of what marketers do, frankly, whether your brand side or agency side is just, you’re just translators between different kind of sets of people in an organization. And there was traditional, then there was digital response and brand and IT and it’s like different people have got different objectives and slightly different ways of doing it. But actually I’ve always seen IT people really lean in. If you can explain the use case really clearly to them and kind of tell them, what you’d want and what the measure of success would be, they lean in. But half the time, someone just goes and says, I need this. And they don’t really understand why they’re being asked to do it. So I think, I think that is really good advice. And I think your point about find trusted, trusted advisors is also important because whether it’s MarTech or retail media, it being in your shoes, it must be hard because you must be inundated with people constantly. You have to try and work out who do I listen to? Who do I take advice from? Because, you can’t use or employ every single bit of technology that’s out there, nor is all of it as good as they say it will be. So I think that is other, another fear factor that, okay, I’m just not going to engage with it because it’s just too scary and I don’t really know how to judge it. Therefore I won’t. But your point about curiosity and just getting advice or kind of perspective from others that are a little bit more agnostic, I think is a really good way to think about it.
Ollie – 00:29:32:
I think also don’t bet the house on it. Right. So like, don’t assume that by installing. Installing technology, it’s going to completely change. I mean, I always, yeah, I’m a big test and learn guy. And I really believe that if you bring innovation in and you test it, you can see it, you can scale it and then see what happens with it. I think if you, you know, if you bet everything on it, because you, you believe this is going to be the revolution, it’s never going to be the revolution because you’d have to be incredibly lucky to get that.
Paul – 00:29:58:
Yeah, that’s very true.
Ollie – 00:30:00:
Thing that’s gonna you’re gonna put it in and it’s literally gonna change everything overnight, you know I think, if you get in it particularly in the world we work and if you test and learn and you try on these things, you will find that it’s a classic thing. I mean I’ve worked a range of e-comm companies, I think generally speaking most tests that are run I think it’s one in ten work. So you know, the more tests you run the more likely you are to find the thing that, that’s going to work. So I think get out there and trial a little bit, at a when it’s a lower part of what you want to do, and then then you can scale that up.
Paul – 00:30:30:
Good advice. Yeah, good advice, so you’ve mentioned innovation a few times, and I’ve often kind of observed that Boots is really good at innovating in different spaces, so whether it’s Boots Media Group, as a proposition or the online doctor, kind of stuff you’ve been doing recently, the kind of products and services. Which I, know you and I just were talking about it the other day, that you were saying it’s been a real success in it. I’m really interested in like where the insight for stuff like that comes from and how much those type of almost like, service product propositions come out of marketing or their collaborations between marketing and other parts of the organization.
Ollie – 00:31:09:
Yeah, it’s a really, really great question. I think more and more and more it’s becoming a key part of businesses to understand, I suppose, not to sound like a breaker, but again, I think it comes back to that consumer understanding. And I think we’re really lucky to understand our customers. And I think you see where behavior is leading customers and what are they looking for? And therefore, do we have something that fits that? Whether they’re looking for it in the market, so are we seeing data, are we seeing trends in things like search where we’re seeing lots and lots of searches for certain things, but there’s not a fulfillment of that offer for a customer, so they’re leading to that space. So we know particularly in healthcare, there are huge volumes of searches around conditions and increasingly in different areas. And is that really being serviced? And do we feel as a business that we have the right as a brand and as to play in that space and to offer something to them that would suit them and would help them with some of the needs they may have? And I think that for me has always been a really key thing. There’s always been that kind of consumer-led, insight-led thinking. And I think if you start there and you have data that helps you with that, then you can then make a decision as to whether or not you can develop a proposition in that space. And I think when we see it in a lot of spaces now, if you look at something like TikTok, the trends that come from TikTok now, and you look at products that are there. They’re shaping people’s decisioning on what to purchase. And so having propositions that suit things like that, you’ve got rich live data that you can use, see whether it works, and then make a decision whether you want to put that proposition. But I think to your point about the combination of kind of marketing, commercial, you know, sort of product development, I think it’s becoming, in all the companies I’ve worked in, it’s slowly, you can see it getting closer and closer together, because reality is insights can be generated from, lots of different places now versus probably before where you, you know, you did research, but you don’t have access to probably that richness of consistent real data constantly because you’d have to go out and find it.
Paul – 00:33:19:
No, no, no. That’s really fascinating to hear. And I think this whole, it’s not quite product marketing because product marketing often means something slightly different, but the idea that actually marketing departments through understanding data start to build different products and services that do a job of marketing, but also provide meaningful value of wellbeing to their customers, I think is really interesting. I was talking to the kind of lead marketer over at Albertsons in the States a while ago, and he came from Amazon, where obviously there was a very product marketing thought about everything has brought mentality into the org. And now they’re doing what you’re saying, like identifying an unmet need and then go, well, we should build an app about wellness and health for our grocery customers to point them to the right type of products because that’s what we’re seeing that people actually want rather than just keep going out with promotions or keep going out with kind of particular seasonal offers. It feels like retail as a whole is becoming a lot more kind of meaningful in the role it plays in kind of their customers’ lives rather than just selling stuff. Because that’s where retail always was, wasn’t it? Let’s be honest. It was stuff was bought in and sold margin, but now it feels like brands like yourselves, Albertsons, and a lot of others actually play a much more interesting role. It always made sense that Dove did because they made the product, right? But actually the retailer has just the same amount of right to play that kind of meaningful role in a customer’s life.
Ollie – 00:34:51:
Yeah. Couldn’t agree with you more, Paul. I think also it’s relevancy. Like as a good retailer, you’ve always wanted to be relevant. You’ve always wanted to have the thing that your customer wanted, that you’ve always wanted to have that thing because that’s why they chose to come to you versus going to someone else. And I think it’s that, how do you know what you need to have to be relevant that is becoming, is evolved a lot. You know, I think back to my, kind of start my career when I was working in Sainsbury’s and, you know, and, you know, was in the store environment and really being able to know the customers you have and what do you want to showcase was always critical because then I know you knew you could offer them what they wanted and you would drive sales from that. So I think that principle still stays true, but I think you’re so right in the sense of the, what you’re able to now do is accelerate it way beyond the sale of products into the products that will suit what your customer wants.
Paul – 00:35:45:
Yeah. So we’re coming towards the end, Ollie. So I’m going to change tack a little bit and ask you a couple of slightly more kind of personal questions. So the first one will be, and we’ve probably touched on some of it, but like the person doing your job or doing a CMO job going forward, what do you think the key attributes need to be to deal with this world that we’ve talked about today?
Ollie – 00:36:07:
Yeah, I think we have touched on it a bit. I mean, for me, it’s always been curiosity. I think if you work in this industry today, you must be curious about what is happening around you. And the best marketers that I’ve worked with and the best partners and everyone have a really curious, proactive mind to go out and find out what is actually going on. Where’s the market going? You know, who is leading what? What is this, you know, what is this GenAI? You know, why, you know, how do I use it? What could I use it for? You know, and then just, I think you used a brilliant word. It’s the idea of play, like go in and really test it, trial it, play with the tooling, see what it is. I think also it removes the fear. Like you don’t like, initially you’re like, you know, is it like a robot that’s going to like take over the world? No, it’s not the Terminator, you know? And actually, if you put the wrong thing in it, it gives you no answers that are of any relevancy anyway.
Paul – 00:36:59:
Right.
Ollie – 00:37:00:
But I think the curiosity to go into that, you know, is the important, for me, has always been the important, so I think that’s going to be really important. And I also think it was a thing we’ve talked about a lot today is, don’t forget it’s about consumers and it’s about humans. And so the way what you make and what you show for them becomes even more important. So I think if you keep those tenets together, really consumer centric and natural curiosity, I think that’s a really powerful mix. And I always say, I mean, all the best marketers I’ve ever worked with have had that in healthy doses, a kind of, you know, that kind of mix together.
Paul – 00:37:35:
Well said. Well said. And my last question is, I mean, you’re a very articulate, experienced marketer. You’ve won a ton of awards of late. And a lot of people are thinking, well, Ollie’s got it all down. He knows what he’s doing. And of course, that’s never ever the case. I mean, you and I talked about that beginning that everyone’s always a work in progress. Whether it’s a hard skill like AI, or it’s more just things you’re trying to get better at from a leadership perspective, like what are the things that you are focusing on to grow in?
Ollie – 00:38:03:
Yeah, I always feel it’s really interesting. I was saying that, yeah, we talked about it before. I think you’re always trying to, it’s never done, right? So you always feel like there’s always something else. And I am, interestingly, like we were talking about AI, like when it came along originally, and I was talking to people, they were like, well, you’re quite data literate, Ollie. You must know how we’re going to utilize this in the business. And I was, well, you know, to be honest, no, it’s not that, you know, it’s huge. It’s massive. It’s like game changing. So I think for me, even, it’s been a journey to go on to understand the relevancy of what we use, the tools, how is the, how’s the industry going to evolve? Like really thinking about like, what do I as a leader need to do to make sure that we are, you know, my teams of the skills that they need in the future to set them up right with the way that the, you know, these type of tooling is coming in. And then like, personally, you know, I’m always thinking a lot about, you know, myself, what do I need to work on personally to be, to be a better leader, to be, you know, a better coach. I’m really, you know, you know, I’m really passionate about the next generation of marketeers that are coming through. And, you know, I really, I’m working, you know, a lot. I’m very lucky to mentor some amazing people. And I really feel truly passionate about that as well. Like I really, you know, we’ve got some incredible. We work in an incredible industry.
Paul – 00:39:25:
We do.
Ollie – 00:39:26:
That’s so exciting. And sometimes I think we forget it. And sometimes I don’t think we shout enough about how great it is. So yeah, for me personally, there’s, there’s a lot of work. I feel personally, I want to do more in that space. So I was really lucky. I’ve had great leaders and I’ve had great mentors and I want to probably give back a bit more now into the industry. So, so yeah, so I’m working on it. I’ve got a lot to do for myself, Paul.
Paul – 00:39:51:
Haven’t we all, Ollie? Haven’t we all? But no. I think that really, I agree entirely with everything you just said. And look, you’ve taken us on a really great arc from kind of thinking about art and science together to customer centricity, make sure you lean in and play with the technology and the data and get balance and consider, like, are you doing these things for the right reasons? Is it going to be sustainable? So I think you’ve given our listeners a lot of things to think about. So I really appreciate you making the time for the conversation today.
Ollie – 00:40:22:
Nice, it’s an absolute pleasure. Paul, it’s always lovely to see you, always really lovely to chat and really enjoyed it. It’s really, really, it’s been great to kind of chat and talk through those different areas.
Paul – 00:40:30:
Well, I will, I know I will see you soon. So take care. A bientôt, as they say in France.
Ollie – 00:40:37:
I look forward to it. Cheers, Paul.
Paul – 00:40:42:
And that’s a wrap for this episode of the Time For A Reset Marketing Podcast: Insights from Global Brand Marketers, brought to you by CvE Marketing Consultancy. I’ve been your host, Paul Frampton-Calero, and I hope the insights shared today will help you reset and refine your strategies for successful brand transformation. We’d love to hear from you. If you’re enjoying Time For A Reset, please do leave us a comment or a review on your preferred platform and subscribe to be the first to know when a new episode drops. See you next time as I chat with another senior marketing leader. See you soon. Bye.
